DISQUS

anonymous · 1 year ago

hey dhru, would love to hear your thoughts on drinking as well as conscious drinking. I don't think it's appropriate to use my real name as many people here know me, but I really want to open a discussion on this matter. Is this against WLIR regulations? I'm really wondering as I've been having a sort of "drinking problem" with raw wine since going raw and wonder if I'm the only one....

Dhrumil · 1 year ago

Are you talking about on a restaurant level? Or on a personal basis?

Personally Speaking...

Once every 3 to 6 months I might have a half glass of wine at Pure Food and Wine with friends. It's not that I'm against drinking, just personally I can't handle alcohol well. I get a headache even with a few sips. I have a feeling that my system reacts to it as a threat.

I'm sure in a year or so naturally I will let it go completely. But I'm not in a rush. If it happens, it happens.

What sort of drinking problem are you having?

anonymous · 1 year ago

i guess it's just a run-of-the-mill drinking problem. BUT it only happened when I went raw, and a couple of friends I know have the same problem. The whole "It's alcohol (wine), but at least it's raw...." problem. Does that even make sense?

anonymous · 11 months ago

wow.... obviously no one cares about this issue.

Dhrumil · 11 months ago

You weren't really descriptive in your comment. I still have no idea what you're talking about.

Are you saying you don't like people recommending wine? Or that you yourself have an addiction to it?

Can you give some details..

anonymous · 11 months ago

I'm totally addicted.... and it happened after being 100% raw for a year or so. I don't have a problem with people saying wine is fine, I just wish there was an alternative to AA...

rawfoodrightnow · 1 year ago

Hey Anon -

I don't know if you are able to grab a copy of the UK magazine Get Fresh, but I just want you to know and everyone else out there that I wrote a very up front and honest point/counter-point article about drinking alcohol in the Winter 2008 issue that should be hitting newsstands very soon.

In the article I am "pro alcohol". On the "no alcohol" side is Dr. Graham.

I have a lot of thoughts about the issue, and I know there are a LOT of raw people out there who have various levels of "drinking problems" with alcohol.

You are not alone.

And like Dhru I would like to know what kind of "drinking problem" you are having. It would help to know a bit more specifics.

Besides. Dhru's post is all about community, and the alcohol issue is no different. It is time for the raw community to be open and honest and supportive of the entire raw community, so someone like you should not fear talking about something that you want more information about.

~ Heidi

Apple · 11 months ago

I would like to note, your pro-alcohol is not like society's pro-alcohol stance. Compared to most people (abusing alcohol is *very* common), we're Puritans (I drink about the same as you--and don't care, I could drop it if I wanted). Normally when I hear "pro-alcohol", I think "apologist for alcohol abuse", but your stance is very sensible (for those who wish to drink) and very supportive of those who don't wish to drink it all. You're just not saying "never". You're not advocating daily wine (which I think is ridiculous, personally). Anyway, just wanted to point out that your "pro-alcohol" stance is very moderate and not like the typical "pro-alcohol" stance that is an extreme (IMO).

anonymous · 11 months ago

ya, I read the article, it was very good (both sides), but at the same time, I don't agree with doug from the 100% no alcohol standpoint and I'm not sure about you from the alcohol on occasion standpoint... I think it's much deeper than everything I've read in raw food books, but at the same time i definitely don't agree with AA's standpoint. It's very frustating!! :) I love wine, and when I "stay raw" I just drink a lot of wine as the only comfort food available yet still raw and in effect, never lose weight on raw, just gain (alcohol related) fat.... it's something I've observed in other people too so I know I'm not the only one

Philip McCluskey · 1 year ago

Now that was a great review. Thank you Dhru. I get down with restaurant 2. : )

Dhrumil · 1 year ago

Appreciate it bro. I get present to the power of community more and more every day.

RawAllison · 1 year ago

A wonderfully written article! Restaurant 2 is definitely not for everyone, but it's the type of place I would enjoy patronizing. The raw "movement" is merely a cash cow to too many entrepreneurs these days. When people actually put love and care for community into their raw business, I will gravitate towards them and gladly hand over my money. You can tell the difference between someone just trying to make a buck and someone who deeply cares. So glad to know Restaurant 2 exists! (Now, where is it?) :-)

Dhrumil · 1 year ago

Restaurant 2 is Cafe Gratitude

Si Dawson · 1 year ago

Ha ha! I haven't eaten at any raw places in SF (yet), but I was STILL about to guess that restaurant 2 was Cafe Gratitude - just from what I've heard from other people who've been there :)

It sounds like an incredible place, can't wait to check it out for myself..

Smoothie Girl · 1 year ago

Great observation about the pivotal aspect of 'community'. As someone thinking about going into business in the raw hospitality/food field and having worked and/or eaten regularly at Restaurant 1 & 2 while living in San Fran.. what you say is spot on!

Vegan Princess · 1 year ago

Restaurant 1 sells its food at five farmers markets each week and holds monthly mixers and parties at the restaurant. To say it is not fostering community is incorrect. Restaurant 2 used to be a lot less expensive than restaurant 1 - perhaps that was pivotal in helping to establish its success. However restaurant 2 has now raised prices so many times that is has become too expensive and is alienating much of its community. The fun atmosphere for me has been replaced by one of feeling ripped off and taken advantage of. Now that restaurant 1 has expanded its hours to add breakfast and lunch and its prices remain below #2, think it will see a boost in its popularity.

alexismichelle · 1 year ago

I love that you recommended Never Eat Alone... that book had a huge impact on my life as well!

Charles · 1 year ago

Can I buy the food from restaurant 1 and eat it at restaurant 2? I'm all about compromise.

Magic Meraa · 1 year ago

Woah! I just got de ja vu reading this blog. That is the kind of community we were trying to create at the restaurant here too. This is a great blog!

elasticfate · 1 year ago

Alive definitely puts more attention into it's food, and it is amazing to savor every single bite there.

But Vegan Princess is right about some things - they do a lot of events, and I get their stuff at farmer's markets and they reach out to community a lot. But it's definitely not the same as the crazy community vibe that permeates Cafe Gratitude...I think that has a lot to do with atmosphere and creating a welcome place with no barriers. It definitely is beneficial to creating community in the immediate moment. I think #1 could definitely work on their own atmosphere without echoing that of #2. I know it would make me make more of an effort to go there more often...I often end up at #2 because it's a fun vibe, and also the location of #1 is a bit father out there for me, but it's also really true about the pricing - Cafe G just raised their prices A LOT in the past year. And since they grow a lot of their own food on their farm, they are paying a lot less than people who have to deal with suppliers. It used to be about $3 less for an entree, which was a big part of why I used to go there instead of Alive - it was just more economical in the long run. They raised their prices due to high gas prices (this was what they printed on the menus and told us customers to rationalize the increase), when it was about $5 a gallon, but now that it's only $1.69 a gallon, I haven't seen them drop it back to normal, and I have to question some of that from an ethical standpoint, especially since they grow a lot of their own food. I still love them, and support them, but it does raise some concerns in the larger local raw food community.

SproutingSeed (Ian) · 1 year ago

One thing people rarely consider about the cost of buying or growing food... having worked on and managed a very small organic farm, and currently work for an organic produce company that purchases from small local farms and some larger commercial ones...

Believe it or not, a restaurant growing their own food on a very small farm is actually much more expensive than buying from large commercial farms like Earthbound. This has alot to do with labor costs, subsidies, profit margins, property prices, leases, ect.

elasticfate · 1 year ago

Thanks for the info, Ian. That's really interesting, as I have worked for a farm-to-table dinner company for quite some time and all the family farms we were on in California were doing quite well, and all my studies in Agro-Businesss show that small scale family farms are much more productive and profitable, so it's nice to hear another side to expand my knowledge base and get the bigger picture from all sides.

I do have a question - would they also be getting large tax write-offs for a lot of their costs, since the restaruant is their main business? Just curious. I know property in NorCal is really, really expensive, but I know little about business tax stuff.

SproutingSeed (Ian) · 1 year ago

Generally speaking, when you pay legal wages, growing locally on land that costs near $250K / acre or leases at $2500 / acre or more, it's going to cost more than say 'Major Organic Co Name Here' grows a majority of their stuff in Yuma, AZ and Mexico at illegal wages and also sells so much that they make a ton of money by selling huge quantity at smaller profit margins - You can see why it can cost more to grow small scale and local.

I agree that small family farms are more productive and profitable in the sense that they might make a 25% profit margin on product over a larger farms 10% margin - but the small organic family farmers we deal with everyday here in AZ, definitely live on the very low end of the middle class on 50 acres of farmable land.

I can tell you beyond doubt from dealing with small local farmers, that the tax breaks and subsidies for them are a very tiny fraction of what the larger companies get.

elasticfate · 1 year ago

I totally agree with what you are saying about the corporate end of the spectrum and paying illegal wages. I just think my personal experience in California has been different from what you have experience in AZ in terms of the small family farms. I am not sure if it is because being organic and health conscious is such a big part of Northern California's values or what, but it does sound different. It would be interesting to talk to more offline. I'd love to hear more about your experiences.

I love Cafe G and their sense of community and openness and their intentions, but food growing aside, there has been a big debate in the local community here in SF about their prices in general, and in their user experience survey, that was the biggest issue the majority of the people had, because many of them had seen them grow and transform. I am not quite sure what to make of it, but I do find their to be very valid points on both sides.

SproutingSeed (Ian) · 1 year ago

My farming experience is actually in Northern CA, and a bit in Costa Rica. I also used to own a restaurant in Sebastopol (North Bay) and work as a chef at several in the SF area.

I would love to chat further, you can email me at sproutingseed@gmail.com

elasticfate · 1 year ago

Awesome. You have much knowledge. I'll hit you up later. :)

elasticfate · 11 months ago

Wow, I had an amazing workshop with Terces & Matthew this weekend, and I have to say I fully retract my statements concerning their prices. When I see all the love that they are, how much they give, and what other amazing projects my money is going towards (working in Mexico to help the Catholic Church question why their methods are not helping people, providing funding for Cafe G workers to attend courses, giving them the opportunity to give away entire workshops for free...the list goes on and on and on) there is no doubt in my mind that spending my money there, no matter how much it is, is a good thing. I am eternally grateful for this weekend and spending time with them and the shifts in perception it allowed me to create. I guess it was that old scarcity programming coming back and my ego judging for a minute..the truth is much more beautiful!

skayla · 1 year ago

Hi Dhrumil,

Excellent point about community! Well-taken. And thanks for the resources (I checked out the Tribes audio clip and Never Eat Alone sounds awesome). I also believe community is definitely changing in this world: what is a community, how is it made, who is in it - so much is evolving!

Thanks so much for bringing light to this topic.

My thoughts as a San Francisco resident on the above two restaurants:

In regards to restaurant number #1, I'm glad to see it expanding its sense of community. Good for them! They are even having a Dec. 21 Winter Solstice party this Sunday, 12/21/08 at 7PM (http://www.aliveveggie.com). I even enjoyed their Halloween party in October! My friend just went to their raw prep class and raved about it.

Restaurant #2 has great community as you wonderfully illustrated for us.

But nice to see community making it's way into other restaurants.

To conclude, community is indeed very important - and we are lucky in San Francisco to have 2 great raw restaurants striving to do their best to keep us coming back and connecting us with our raw crew. Hello!

Skay

Stephen Hopson · 1 year ago

That was a very well written article describing the power of community. All we have to do is take a look at how the Amish people operate - if one family is in need of building a new house, barn or some other kind of structure, the whole community comes together and helps out. It's a sense of unity that brings them together.

That's exactly what you've managed to do here at "We Like It Raw." That's why I signed up to be a part of a group of people who are doing basically the same thing where there is no judgment (for the most part) and lots of love. Now if only we could meet in the flesh somehow!

Sunshine · 1 year ago

Great post! I had figured out what Restaurant 2 is, and I still can't wait to go there when I make it up that way! ;)

Rawvolta · 1 year ago

Great post, Dhru!
I knew that #2 is cafe Gratitude!
I have their " I Am Grateful: Recipes and Lifestyle of Cafe Gratitude " book and love it!
The other book of the owner , that talks about conscious way of building business from raw food point of view ( and beyond ) is " Sacred Commerce:
Business as a Path of Awakening " by Matthew & Terces Engelhart, Owners of Cafe Gratitude.
Worth reading!

As Peter Ragnar says : "Ideas sell not time " !
Aloha!

@gcrush · 1 year ago

I LOVE cafe gratitude, it grabbed at my soul the minute I walked in there years ago! the best place ever! I am hoping and hoping that someday they might bring one to reno!

I have a friend who is a tv producer in the world not associated with raw foods, and I shared this little marvel with him, it was so fantastic to have him do a video and love his experience with them!!!

community baby, it's all about community!

so hoping our times and dates match for february!!!!! It would be the best day ever, sitting with philip, gala darling, dhrumil, and so many of the amazing raw food earthlings!!!!

debbiedoesraw · 1 year ago

some day I will try both of these, but I already know I will love Cafe G, love their book and their ideology...the raw places in LA I have been to are very distinctive in their "flava" and hard to really compare.. but for creativity Au Lac is off the charts!
love and peas
happy holidays
deb
PS come see my 12 days of raw christmas, a treat a day, for 12 days, all raw, all fun!
www.debbiedoesraw.blogspot.com

AshS · 1 year ago

Awesome review! I've eaten at both restaurant #1 and restaurant #2 about 4 times each. I agree with you that they are completely different experiences. A few people have suggested that restaurant #1 does in fact interact with its local community, but I think another important point is reflected by the saying "perception is reality". When I've had dinner at Restaurant #1, its been to expose someone who has never tried Raw foods to the experience. I choose Restaurant #1 because the environment is more familiar to them. Modern interior design, candle lit type ambiance, quiet environment are just a few of the things mainstream eaters align with when eating out at a nice restaurant. I do agree with you Dhru when you say the experience is over when you leave the restaurant. The food is very good but the restaurant is a bit cold and the staff has never been friendly when I've been there. Most of the times when I've gone there has been one waitress who seems tired and overworked, and as a result is never too friendly. So even though they may invest in their community, it doesn't feel that way when you are there.

Restaurant #2 is the complete opposite. People are genuinely happy and relaxed but still efficient. Immediately upon seeing them, many will wonder "what are they are on" because they look so happy. You feel community right when you step in the restaurant. People at the bar smiling, laughing with the staff and each other. There is an energy about Restaurant #2 which will draw you back again and again. My fear in taking someone to restaurant #2 as a first experience is that it will reinforce their skewed idea that raw food is only for hippies.

Dhrumil · 1 year ago

Hey Ash. Thanks for your comments bro. You make some fantastic points. Appreciative you dropping by brother.

elasticfate · 1 year ago

"So even though they may invest in their community, it doesn't feel that way when you are there."

I think that pretty much sums it up, because it seems all the community stuff that we each brought up in their defense was mostly stuff outside of the restaurant like farmer's markets and festivals, which is in a more lively public environment.

They do also have a few meetups, which are during the holidays so they get a larger turnout and the energy of people there is greater, which is how #2 feels on any given day. It's like to #2 life itself is a holiday, which is what i love about it.

Kevin · 1 year ago

Hi! I'm from Charlotte, NC and visited SF last year. As I read through your post I realized that I had been to "Restaurant 2" while visiting. I typically don't focus on restaurants when I'm traveling but I had to experience this one after reading reviews - I could definitely pick up on the vibe/community you discussed even while reading about them online. I was extremely glad I took the time to eat there. Like you pointed out, they introduced me to others sitting at the bar and the overall atmosphere was definitely like you're at a friend's house. They were so friendly and helpful in understanding the food choices (I'm vegetarian not raw). I even took their recommendation to visit an experimental theater production that one of their friends was in. The next time I'm out that way I'll have to try "Restaurant 1". While everyone has their own thoughts about the two, I'm jealous of any city that has even one raw/live food restaurant!

Parag · 12 months ago

Absolutely fabulous post, and so universally applicable.

I am planning to start a web based community for teaching and learning Java programming. I hope to apply the community experience to my website.

Thanks a lot.

Anissa · 12 months ago

i eat fairly often at restaurant #2 and agree with all of the comments you made here. EXCEPT that i happen to think they have the best desserts on the planet! sometimes i go there just to get a sweet fix and to feel the community connection that you talked about.